Curse

Fitz Rinley · Sep 10, 2008, 01:01 AM // 01:01

At this point in the Guild Wars game all actions which players take to advance result in achievement for the Hall of Monuments. While the developers of Guild Wars 2 debate how much if any the achievements in the Hall of Monuments will influence the next generation of the game, we can safely say that completing the Hall of Monuments is now the primary result and focus of play.

To complete the five stations in the Hall of Monuments one must:

Monument of Fellowship: Upgrade armor on 25 Heroes and attain a 20th level Imperial Phoenix, Black Widow Spider, Black Moa. This, with the new hero MOX will gain 30 statues available for display.
Monument of Devotion: Obtain and dedicate 20 minipets (at a cost of 1 to 100k plus ecto for those birthday presents that do not randomly duplicate those you already have.)
Monument of Valor: Obtain and place 11 Destroyer Weapons at a cost of approximately 28k a piece to manufacture, or 308k. (Graciously extensive hours of play to obtain Torment Weapons may substitute.)
Monument of Resilience: Obtain and place a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 17 elite armors at a cost of 75k plus materials usually speaking. So, potentially another 400 to 1,350 k or more.
Monument to Honor: Including the title tracks Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, and Skill Hunter will run 9,561,400g less a some rare drops. Then there is LDoA which at 50g a session costs about 21, 850 in bribing gate hookers to get in to the Northlands so you can work on it.

Altogether the five monuments cost near 10,291,250 to 11,241,250 gold per character to complete. At an average of 2.5 k per hour playing the game we have as much as 4,500 hours plus per character to complete the gold cost of the Hall of Monuments. For many of us very avid players that comes to 3 years of solid play on one character only. Those of us that are avid players will not play one character only, and like myself often have 10. IF we do not eat, drink, sleep, or otherwise we could theoretically accomplish only those things that cost gold in 188 days of straight play. We still have the months needed to accomplish the other 26 titles and get the armor remnants for play. And we are still on only one character, nor have we set out to do any of the elite dungeons in the older games yet.

The fact is the drop rates have always been too low. The time it takes to accomplish anything in GW has always been excessive. This can also be seen in the cost of gold on line. I have never purchased gold on line but I have watched it as an indicator of the GW economy. It is a simple rule of economics that when supply is down demand increases. Three years ago one could find gold for sale on line at $50.00 per 1,000k. Today it is $150.00 for the same amount. This proves that supply has decreased to demand with the plethora of nerfs and rigid regulation supposedly aimed at curbing interest. Instead, GW is increasing interest in violating the EULA with irrational economic decisions.

I have guild members who have complained how GW has turned into a grind fest and lost most of its fun factor. This is exactly why, they have increased the cost of success in the game to the point where it is only grind and for most unachievable. It is especially unachievable before GW2 is released, given the current rate. (Unless of course they plan to release it in 30 years.)

Neo Nugget · Sep 10, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

At this point in the Guild Wars game all actions which players take to advance result in achievement for the Hall of Monuments. While the developers of Guild Wars 2 debate how much if any the achievements in the Hall of Monuments will influence the next generation of the game, we can safely say that completing the Hall of Monuments is now the primary result and focus of play.

To complete the five stations in the Hall of Monuments one must:[LIST][*]Monument of Devotion: Obtain and dedicate 20 minipets (at a cost of 1 to 100k plus ecto for those birthday presents that do not randomly duplicate those you already have.)[*]Monument of Valor: Obtain and place 11 Destroyer Weapons at a cost of approximately 28k a piece to manufacture, or 308k. (Graciously extensive hours of play to obtain Torment Weapons may substitute.)[*]Monument of Resilience: Obtain and place a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 17 elite armors at a cost of 75k plus materials usually speaking. So, potentially another 400 to 1,350 k or more.

You can craft the EOTN armor for 10k, and put it in the HoM. That's cheaper than the regular 15k elite armor.

Many minipets are very cheap, like fungal wallow and other 1st year whites. You don't need to have the best or rarest mini's to be in the HoM, 20 white mini's is the same as 20 asian mini's.

You also don't need drunkard or sweet tooth to have a complete HoM, you can beat the 3 campaigns, then do the deep and urgoz once. Then your set.( dunno if KoABD is something you need to complete the monument )

Gift3d · Sep 10, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

If you really want to fill up your HoM, yeah you're gonna have to grind. But those of us who KNOW we aren't forced to complete it can just play casually and continue not really giving a damn, and will just have a lot of fun playing guild wars, 100% grind-free

Winterclaw · Sep 10, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

GW is a grindfest because the devs gave in to the people that want to grind. GW is staying a grindfest because by now they don't care otherwise and want WoW's numbers.

It would be nice if there were things that could be done for the HoM that don't require extensive grinding, but I guess that'd be too much to ask at this point.

crazybanshee · Sep 10, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I wish people would quit complaining about how grindy gw is. Go play a Korean mmorpg and then try to say that gw is grindy. It's the least grind of any game I've played. You don't have to grind for max level - you can get it in 1 DAY! On another game I played, I played 3 hours a night, 6-7 nights a week, and it took over a year to advance 1 LEVEL (and thats not even close to the top level in the game) which was extremely fast leveling for that particular game.

There is almost no required grind at all - and what grind exists is a 1 day grind - in fact the only required grind I can think of is in nightfall where you have to get a sunspear rank to continue - which you may already have from doing quests and stuff. All the grind that exists in gw is unnecessary - you don't HAVE to fill up your hall. You don't HAVE to get max titles. you don't HAVE to have 17 elite armor sets, 20 stacks of ectos, or a high rank emote. You CAN if you WANT to. And if you don't want to, then don't. Go do ha for fun, or ra, or whatever floats your boat. But don't complain because there exists some extra curricular grind for those of us that don't mind it.

gremlin · Sep 10, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Some players want these things others do not, point is this
You do not have to do any of it

GW has only become a grind if you want titles and whatever honours pass over to gw2 from said achievements.

All of the grind came at the request of players asking for more things to do

Guess what anet listened and they got them.

BenjZee · Sep 10, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

I'm sorry but it came apparent to me that we needed to know how gw had became a grind fest, i honestly had no idea.
actually i enjoy the game and dont think there is much grind. You don't have to do everything anyway to fill a monument, 10 destroyer weaopns, 5 heroes, 5 armors etc....its not actually that hard. And anyway who says you have to do this, if you don't want to grind then don't. Play the game for fun otherwise theres no point playing.
no one said you have to fill the HoM at all and even make it 100%; so what you get something nice in gw2 its only a little gift. I just know you people complaining about grind are going to complain even more when you get given pretty much nothing in gw2 even though you've 'deserve' better rewards.
i have to say i've almost finished my monument the basic way and its even easier now theyre makin it account based.

The titles one isn't too hard to fill especially when you get a statue for completing the game.
The eye of the north armors are about 10k + materials for each peice which means about 40k for an armor set (you don't need to buy a headpiece each time now do you).

Balkoth · Sep 10, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

So what about the people who did all this already?
Whats left for them?

Seriosuly, just because you show people the celing dosent mean you have to hit it.

Play for fun, if grinding is fun you have lots of playtime ahead

[Morkai] · Sep 10, 2008, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Sky is falling bla bla bla.

The game is only a grind if you make it that way. Grinding is doing things over and over to achive a goal, so pace yourself, you've got a good 1-2 years to do it all. Chill.

Just remember, it's what you make it!

furyow · Sep 10, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

GW is a grindfest because the devs gave in to the people that want to grind. GW is staying a grindfest because by now they don't care otherwise and want WoW's numbers.

It would be nice if there were things that could be done for the HoM that don't require extensive grinding, but I guess that'd be too much to ask at this point.

I agree there, mostly due to pvers wanting repeating quests and 24/7 dungeons.

Regarding HoM, its still grind for all the display craps you'd have to do, like me just don't bother with it.

Fitz Rinley · Sep 10, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Summary: So, the basis is GW is fun as long as you have no goals and will try to accomplish nothing. No one should bother with playing the game out completely - whatever would they do that for. Completion means nothing and achievement should be disregarded. All the things the Developers put in are meaningless to the game, and were a waste of time they could have spent fixing the bugs they have not bothered with in three years.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Sep 10, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

How GuildwarsGuru has become a QQ Fest
-We get a thread complaining about titles every day
-We get a thread complaining about Farming every day
-We get a thread complaining about HoM everyday
-We get a thread complaining about No new content every day
-We get a thread complaining about every effing thing every day.

To fix this I prepose we all stfu and deal with it.

Really this is all optional, no one is making you fill your HoM.

I MP I · Sep 10, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

If a game sucks, uninstall. Simple as that. Then just hang out with your girlfriend's girlfriend, the hot girl next door, drink and wake up next to somebody you don't know the following morning, or drag race with your motorcycle/car for money. Real life > boring dead games. But hey, if real life isn't your thing, you could always play another game that captures your interest for more than 2 minutes.

Fitz Rinley · Sep 10, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

The only point to the game now is the HoM. That is the conclusion of Guild Wars. It covers the game so thoroughly that you cannot play without working toward something in it - no matter how pittifully the play contributes to it.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 10, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

To complete the five stations in the Hall of Monuments one must:

Monument of Fellowship: Upgrade armor on 25 Heroes and attain a 20th level Imperial Phoenix, Black Widow Spider, Black Moa. This, with the new hero MOX will gain 30 statues available for display.
Monument of Devotion: Obtain and dedicate 20 minipets (at a cost of 1 to 100k plus ecto for those birthday presents that do not randomly duplicate those you already have.)
Monument of Valor: Obtain and place 11 Destroyer Weapons at a cost of approximately 28k a piece to manufacture, or 308k. (Graciously extensive hours of play to obtain Torment Weapons may substitute.)
Monument of Resilience: Obtain and place a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 17 elite armors at a cost of 75k plus materials usually speaking. So, potentially another 400 to 1,350 k or more.
Monument to Honor: Including the title tracks Drunkard, Sweet Tooth, Party Animal, and Skill Hunter will run 9,561,400g less a some rare drops. Then there is LDoA which at 50g a session costs about 21, 850 in bribing gate hookers to get in to the Northlands so you can work on it.

There is a difference between Maxing out the HoM and filling it. Filling it puts in as much stuff as possible (one of every mini, every title, every armor, etc. etc.). That is basically what you're saying (aside from the mini part). Maxing it is only putting in enough stuff for each monument. And then getting at least rank 4 KoaBD. In other words, maxing would be:

Monument of Fellowship: Upgrade armor on 5 Heroes or level 20 pets (Imperial Phoenix, Black Moa, and Widow Spider counts as two, other pets count as one as a whole). (No cost if you do the challenge missions yourself).
Monument of Devotion: Obtain and dedicate 20 minipets (minimum cost: 20k)
Monument of Valor: Obtain and place 11 Destroyer Weapons. (Cost: 55k, 110 Onyx, 110 Diamond, 1100 Iron, 2750 Granite)
Monument of Resilience: Obtain and place 5 elite armors at a cost of 50k/75k plus materials.(For money savers, 250k and materials.)
Monument to Honor: 5 Max titles/accomplishments and get r4 KoaBD. (Cheapest way: Legendary Guardian (7), Legendary Cartographer (4), Legendary Vanquisher (4), Legendary Master of the North (1), 4 others of choice) (Vanquisher, Guardian and MotN help you get money to pay for other things for the HoM).

Total cost of filling the HoM with cheapest tastes, not including minipets that are free:
0g (Friendship) + 20k (Devotion) + ~308k (Valor) + ~400k(Resilience) + Xg (Honor)= ~728k + Xg (Honor depends on what 20 titles you go after).

Grind needed? Yes. But not as much as you claim. If you go for the cheapest of the cheapest while still filling up your HoM.

Of course, if you want to avoid grind. Don't worry about filling the HoM, as the devs said, there won't be much for filling it.

Siadena · Sep 10, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

If it wasn't for the grind, people would have stopped playing long ago. There would be nothing to do and/or look forward to after you complete all campaigns. Yes, it can be tedious at time, but thank god for titles! Good math comparisons though.

In addition, I bet ANET will make money and valuables more common place over the next year. I mean the new mox quest, like 10k per char, per completion, that's a new one. More one time use items being added to the game, zaishen additions and upgrades. And to top all that off, one year to go.

Lastly and probably most importantly, don't forget the HOM update coming sometime (soon?). It has been said that tormented weapons WILL be able to be added to the HOM, and that some more titles, pets, armors, etc - will be able to be "account wide" as opposed to just character based only. So, hold off on dedicating anything else or crafting any more armor for the time being and don't off your tormenteds yet till you see how it all pans out. I think their HOM update is adressing exactly what your beef is above, seemingly impossible pursuits for a person who goes to school or works.
So keep your verdict out for now....
xo

garethporlest18 · Sep 10, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Grind like you're pointing out is needed for game longevity. Guild Wars would actually be even less impressive if it did not have some form of grind. Back during Prophecies we didn't have all this, but what did we have? Farming. That's grind too when it all comes down to it. This game doesn't have a very in depth story so there needs to be grind or people will move on after 1-2 months instead of 1-3 years.

Also Anet have been trying to lessen the grind. Sure they could do better but hey, the HoM update coming like Siadena said will certainly help to some extent as it's easier to get some titles with other chars. The double weekends help, even if they're not all that often.

kazjun · Sep 10, 2008, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Yeah, it's more grind than what it was when I first started 3 years or so earlier. But I'm not sure it's up to the level that you state.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that for the HoM to count, all you NEEDED was:

5 hero/pet statues. Not all 25 + pets. Easy to get and you should have close to this anyway just by playing.

20 mini's. If you have ~8 characters you should have plenty of mini's as the years go by. Easy to trade for or by cheap 1st year whites as well. After all, the hall doesn't care if you're putting in a devourer or a mini-panda. One pet is one pet.

5 armours. You don't need the headpiece so 60k+mats, but armour is actually useful so it's not a total waste to buy. A +health suit, a + energy suit, a +armour when enchanted, a +armour in stance and some other type is usable without being wasteful. Though if all you want is the monument, you don't have to spend a anything on runes or insignias. They go in the hall fine without anything on them.

5 titles. Just get the 3 protectors for all play and no grind, then get two more titles. Easiest two would be the grind for SS/LB. They're easy and relatively quick to max. Those two and the 3 protectors should be enough to count for your 5 titles.

11 weaps. Right now you can only put destroyer weaps in, though supposedly they are planning to allow tormented as well. If you're worried about cost then you're not going to use tormented anyway. Yeah, this is the biggest waste of money out of any of the monuments, but once you have the 11 in your hall you can scrap the junk that is the destroyer weaps and never have to think of them again.

So yeah, it's not dirt cheap, but it's far from being impossible even for a casual guy. If you're going for maxed title's then that's a different story...

w00t! · Sep 10, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

At this point in the Guild Wars game all actions which players take to advance result in achievement for the Hall of Monuments. While the developers of Guild Wars 2 debate how much if any the achievements in the Hall of Monuments will influence the next generation of the game, we can safely say that completing the Hall of Monuments is now the primary result and focus of play.

(snip)

The fact is the drop rates have always been too low. The time it takes to accomplish anything in GW has always been excessive.

(snip)

I have guild members who have complained how GW has turned into a grind fest and lost most of its fun factor. This is exactly why, they have increased the cost of success in the game to the point where it is only grind and for most unachievable. It is especially unachievable before GW2 is released, given the current rate. (Unless of course they plan to release it in 30 years.)

There are two faults in your argument (edit - the reasons your logic is faulty is):
1) The Hall of Monuments is voluntary
2) The linkage between HoM and GW2 is unknown

The interesting part of your argument is that your conclusion is correct. The funny thing is that all of this flies in the face of logic.

The one thing that we all know is that GRIND in GW is completely voluntary:
1) You can easily obtain max weapons and armor as a casual player
2) There is no material benefit to titles, with the limited exception of those that reduce pick breakage and improve salvage chances.

The final point of interest is that very few people ever even look at any others' Halls. I looked at a friend who is a GWAMM once. Whoop-de-doo.

The funny thing is that the gamers are being driven by their own psyches to grind, then blaming Anet for requiring it. That is a false premise (as shown above). It's just that most gamers are fairly egocentric and want to have a perceived advantage over others, even if it is only bling.

HawkofStorms · Sep 10, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

The only point to the game now is the HoM. That is the conclusion of Guild Wars. It covers the game so thoroughly that you cannot play without working toward something in it - no matter how pittifully the play contributes to it.

I thought the point of a video game was to have fun?

Try playing Spore, or some other sandbox game that doesn't have "objectives." Get some perspective.